Copy-Move-Delete folder

[Marjolein Katsma]

In the release notes for build 445 I read:

Copying folders now only copies non-filtered contents. Deleting and
moving folders now always affects all of the folder's contents. (Removed
"Including Filtered Items" checkboxes.)

What on earth is the motivation to make copy and move behave so inconsistently?

I never want to exclude filtered contents from any action. So now, If I use filtering to focus my view I would have to remember(!) to first remove all filters before doing a copy, and then turn all of them on again. That's not exactly user-friendly. Please give the checkbox back so we can decide how these actions behave instead of having you deciding for us.

<grumble/>

Cirrus is becoming less and less usable for me - I'm still almost exclusively using build 441.

[Tim]

Thanks for your feedback.

One of the frequent complaints about BC2 is that copying folders does not respect file filters.

I will discuss consistency issues and checkboxes separately, but I would like to hear everyone's opinion on this scenario:

1) In a folder compare session, you set file filters to exclude *.bak files and all folders named "temp". If you select Show All and Expand All, you do not see any .bak files or temp folders, and you're happy with that.

2) You have a subfolder named Apples that contains .bak files and a temp folder.

3) You select the (closed) Apples folder and issue a Copy to Other Side command.

4) Would you expect the .bak files and temp folder to be copied?

5) Do you want to be able to copy *.bak and temp even though they're filtered out.

Please notice that 4 and 5 are different questions! In other words:

- What is the most intuitive behavior for a novice or casual user (ie the default behavior)?
- Once you understand the options, which would be most useful for you?

[Edit: See my rephrased question below.]

[Michael Bulgrien]

Since you asked... my answer would be:

If the folder is collapsed, I would expect the folder to be copied in it's entirety (including the .bak files and temp folders)

If the folder is expanded, I would want just the selected and visible items to be copied. In other words, if I selected the folder, but none of the files in the folder, then I would want the folder to be created on the other side, but not to be populated (since my selection did not include the visible files within that folder). While I realize that this differs from Windows Explorer functionality... it would be a welcome difference to me as it would allow easy folder duplication without having to mess with file filters at all.

In summary, if there were a check-box, I would set it one way for collapsed folders, and another way for expanded folders (my personal opinion).

While we're on the topic, other things I miss or would like to see implemented are:

• Return of the Always Show Folders option. I always like to be aware of my folder structure whether or not I am working with files within a specific part of it. I've already specified scenarios where I rely on this functionality in BC2.
• A context menu option to fully expand/collapse a subtree. In other words, double-clicking on a folder currently remembers the expanded state of its subfolders. If a subfolder was expanded earlier in the session before the parent folder was collapsed with a double-click, that subfolder will still be expanded when you re-expand the parent folder, but all other subfolders will remain collapsed.
  
  While this is the desired functionality, there are times that I want to fully collapse a folder tree so that if I reopen the parent, all subfolders will remain collapsed instead of re-expanding subfolders that were expanded before the collapse.
  
  Likewise, there are times that I would like to fully expand a subtree. I guess I can accomplish this with a content compare, but if there were a context menu option to fully collapse a folder structure, then it would seem appropriate to have a context menu option to do the opposite.

[Erik]

• As mentioned elsewhere, "Compare folder structure" will be on by default in the next release.
• Open Subfolders is already shown in the menu, and Close Subfolders is available to show in the menu.

[Michael Bulgrien]

Thank you. I was not aware of the "Close Subfolders" command since it is not visible by default. That is exactly what I was looking for.

As to your other comment, "Compare Folder Structure" is not the same as "Always Show Folders"

[Marjolein Katsma]

Thanks for your feedback.

One of the frequent complaints about BC2 is that copying folders does not respect file filters.

That I can understand. What I don't understand is why you then don't give users the option whether or not to copy or move what is filtered. I could live with having the default state of such option checkboxes be different for copy and move, but having both behave differently without an option to change that behavior just makes no sense to me.

Just as I say "why can't I include hidden files in a copy?" someone else (or I) could say: "why can't I exclude hidden files from a move (i.e., move everything except what's hidden by a filter)?" Both would be legitimate actions that are now suddenly impossible.

1) In a folder compare session, you set file filters to exclude *.bak files and all folders named "temp". If you select Show All and Expand All, you do not see any .bak files or temp folders, and you're happy with that.

2) You have a subfolder named Apples that contains .bak files and a temp folder.

3) You select the (closed) Apples folder and issue a Copy to Other Side command.

4) Would you expect the .bak files and temp folder to be copied?

5) Do you want to be able to copy *.bak and temp even though they're filtered out.

Please notice that 4 and 5 are different questions!

The answer to both 4) and 5) is yes.

Filters, for me, are a view, helping to concentrate on what is momentarily important; not a selection for an action: if I really want to act on a selection I actually make that selection first.

I should add that I rarely even use filters, and always want to see all folders, too. (Same in Windows and in Mac OS X: I configure them so I see everything.)

- What is the most intuitive behavior for a novice or casual user (ie the default behavior)?

I don't know, I was a novice at BC a long time ago but I know I have always use "view all". If something is hidden that never means to me actions should not include the hidden files or folders; when configuring OS or software I always set it to include hidden files/folders.

- Understanding the difference, which way would be most useful for you?

I don't understand what "difference" you mean? The difference between me and a novice?

[Marjolein Katsma]

As to your other comment, "Compare Folder Structure" is not the same as "Always Show Folders"

Exactly. The fact that I always want to see them (and I do mean always, not just in a specific session) does not imply that I want to compare the structure. I just want to see folders, collapsed or not collapsed as I have chosen, and whether or not files or subfolders in them are identical or whatever. (I get terribly confused if some folders do not appear or "pop!" disappear after a comparison - if they are there, I want to see them, period, and not have them disappear on me.)

This is another example of - for me - the difference between a view (always show folders) and an action (compare folder structure).

[chrroe]

Well, I see this topic may lead to a controverse discussion. As often it's not easy to fit everybody's needs perfectly, so you must always make compromizes.

My 2 cents:
IMHO the most intuitive option would be to add a checkbox to the copy and move dialogs which says

"[] include filtered items".

Next to this checkbox I would like to see a summary how many items and KBs are filteres in the current view. So the user can always see, if files or folders would be skipped due to filtering.
Of course it must be possible to set a unique default value. I personally don't know if this should be a session-based or a global option, I actually had no scenario in the past where something was lost or superfluid.

Bye
Christoph

[Tim]

Michael, Marjolein: Please let's keep this thread focused on the issue of actions respecting filters. You've made your position clear on Always Show Folders in the other thread.

[Tim]

You're getting ahead of me here. Like I said, I'll be discussing checkboxes separately. One way or the other, you'll have a way to copy filtered out items.

You've answered my questions (yes and yes).

Thanks

[Tim]

Let me rephrase my question…

Which most closely describes your feelings:

1) "If I copy a folder, it seems most natural to copy all contents, including filtered out items. Of course it would be handy to have the choice to skip excluded items on occasion."

2) "If I copy a folder, it seems most natural to follow the filters I have set up. If I use a session to backup my data, it doesn't seem right to ignore my carefully defined filters and copy things that I've told it I don't want. Of course it would be handy to have the choice to copy the entire folder on occasion."

3) "One way doesn't seem more natural than the other, so I wouldn't be surprised with the default behavior. I'd like a choice but I'd typically want it to ignore the file filters."

4) "One way doesn't seem more natural than the other, so I wouldn't be surprised with the default behavior. I'd like a choice but I'd typically want it to respect the file filters."

In the end there is no right or wrong answer. I'm just trying to gauge the scope of each group.

From past support calls we know of many BC2 users in group 2. There may be just as many in group 1 that we wouldn't have heard from. Michael B. and Marjolein are in group 1. Scooter Software is split between the group 1 and 2. How about you?

[Michael Bulgrien]

Actually, Tim, I don't mind the current default (to respect the file filters). What "feels" natural can change with use. Truth is, I rarely copy folders from BC...my syncs are usually file based. Windows explorer does not have file filters and I am used to copying folders in explorer, so copying everything with the folder "feels" natural. However, the filtered functionality makes sense for a product like BC. And I expect that it will feel more natural the more I use it. Regardless of what feels more natural right now, my vote would be to default to respecting filters, but to allow an override...because that seems to be most consistent with the product direction and the overall feel of Cirrus itself.

[cstern]

I would go for group 2

[RunnerBiker]

I vote for Choice #2 too.

[Marjolein Katsma]

Just to qualify that a bit - while remaining firmly in group 1 - if I really wanted to copy only the content of the folder that is not filtered out, I would select that content to copy rather than the folder itself. The folder represents the complete collection.