Missing "Always show folders" button

[chrroe]

Hi!

Using build 444 I was wondering why some folders were disappearing while a new folder compare was done. Aahh, I remembered from BC2 that there is a button "Always show folders" which makes for example empty folders appear.

:confused: But where is that button in the current Cirrus build?? :confused:

After 10 Minutes of browsing the "Customize Commands" dialog-box, the helpfile and this forum I had no success. Hmmmpff!

Last chance: the Changelog.txt ... and voila:

- Added "Compare Folder Structures" session setting, replaces "Compare orphan folders like orphan files" and "Always Show Folders".

Using this option all the missing folders got displayed. But I think that this checkbox is hidden too much. The helpfile mentions the old button even though.
I personally want to have back the button on the toolbar!! plz. plz. Believe me, every normal BC2 user will run in the same trap like me ...


Any chance? What do the others think?

Bye
Christoph

[Tim]

Sorry, I meant to post about this feature earlier! I'll get the help file updated for the next release.

The new "Compare Folder Structure" option combines and replaces two features that in our view were "band-aids" -- stuck on to fix complaints but not well integrated into the core model.

If the new feature is as successful as we hope it will be, we will enable it by default.

I'd like everyone to try turning on the option in your most-used sessions and your Folder Compare session defaults. Let us know if you find any problems with it, and in what cases you'd rather have it off.

And yes, we'll look into putting it back on the toolbar, but for now it's more important to us to see that it's working correctly.

Thanks,

[jdmarch]

Christoph's request makes sense to me in theory - I did regularly use the Always Show Folders button in BC2. However, for whatever reason I haven't yet missed it in Cirrus, perhaps because until the past month I still used BC2 for pre-existing sessions. So for now I'm agnostic on the question.

Edit: This post's original crossed Tim's. I will give it a try. Tim, could you post a description of exactly how this new option is supposed to work? Or do you want us to be introduced to it more intuitively?

[Michael Bulgrien]

I seldom ever have "Always Show Folders" disabled in BC2 or in Cirrus. The only time I hide folders is when my folder tree is so large that it impacts my ability to find changed files. In those situations, I've used the toolbar button to toggle the option.

I agree that burying this option is not helpful. It unnecessarily complicates the interface and decreases a user's ability to toggle the view on the fly. I don't mind if the setting is saved with a session, but please leave the toggle on the toolbar.

[Tim]

Here's the long story:

BC1's folder comparison always showed the entire directory trees. This caused difficulty finding a few differences in a sea of folders.

In BC2 we implemented a new philosophy: Folders are hidden unless they contains something that contributes to the comparison. IOW, we're really comparing files -- folders are only there to show where the files are located. We recognized that that wouldn't cover everyone's needs so we slapped on a "Show Empty Folders" option. That caused some confusion (does it mean truly empty folders or folders with entire contents filtered out?) so it evolved into the simpler "Always Show Folders". Then there were complaints from people who were surprised that empty orphan folders were not shown as a difference, and when Sync commands didn't sync them. We slapped on a "Create empty folders" option in Sync Options.

In Cirrus we introduced the rather obscurely-named "Compare orphan folders like orphan files" criteria to try to deal with the issue. Then it occured to me that simply the directory structure is either important to the comparison or it isn't. If it is, I want to see orphan folders whether or not they're empty. So we changed the name of the option to "Compare Folder Structure".

Craig then suggested extending Compare Folder Structure criteria beyond merely including orphan empty folders as differences -- it could also count non-orphan empty folders as an explicit match. So now, with Compare Folder Structure enabled:

1. With the Show All display filter you always see all folders.
2. With the Show Orphans display filter (and any other filter that includes orphans) you see all orphan folders.
3. With the Show Same display filter, folders that are on both sides but empty will now appear (they didn't before).

We hope this rather neatly handles what the Always Show Folders option was trying to accomplish.

[Michael Bulgrien]

Thanks, Tim. That sounds like a well thought out and useful implementation (certainly better than the "obscure" BC2 implementations).

I am just requesting a toolbar button to toggle the new enhanced feature (I already looked in the "Customize Commands" dialog to see if it was available...and being so new, I'm not surprised that it hasn't been yet).

It can look the same as the old (eyeglasses on a folder) with a new tooltip to reflect the improved functionality. It would probably be a candidate for the View drop-down menu as well.

[Tim]

As I mentioned earlier, we'll look into adding a toolbar button. However, it's not as simple as you might think: The setting is a comparison criteria and not a display state. Notice that if you turn Compare Folder Structure on or off in a named session, it becomes a modified session and prompts for saving on exit. If we make the feature a display state, it would break one of our design rules: display states never change item coloring. Besides, as it's now implemented, it's a "how to compare" feature and not a "how to display" feature.

[Michael Bulgrien]

You're right, Tim. Now that I've taken another look at it, it's not at all like the "Always Show Folders" option. I do not need this on the toolbar. What I really like is to be able to always see my folders. If content is the same underneath, they turn gray, not dissappear. I used it all the time in BC2 and, while I do like this implementation better than the "Compare orphan folders like orphan files", I do not agree that it replaces the "Always Show Folders" functionality. It eliminates it. :(

[jdmarch]

Thanks for the good explanation, Tim. I think this one is going to take some time to settle out.

[Tim]

Thanks, Michael. That's exactly what we're looking for -- people who would miss "Always Show Folders" if we permanently remove it.

[Michael Bulgrien]

Tim,

In BC2 it is hard to duplicate a folder structure in a simple and logical way. What would really be helpful to me is the following:


User enables "Always Show Folders" (if we get it back)
User selects the "Show None" Favorite (if it gets added) or turns off all component toggles
User expands the folder tree
User selects the expanded folder tree
User copies to other side


To me, this seems like it would be the most logical way to copy a folder structure from one side to the other without having to play with custom file filters, etc.

In BC2, copying the folder (even when the component toggles are all turned off) copies the entire contents of the folders. I have always considered this to be a defect in BC2. If I have expanded my folders and no files are visible (because all of the toggles are off) then copying the visible folders should do just that...copy only the folders without the files.

[Michael Bulgrien]

This is how I tried it in Cirrus (which was equally frustrating):


I expanded all folders.
I Selected All files.
I Inverted the selection so that only folders were selected.
I copied to the other side.


All the files that I had de-selected by inverting the "All Files" selection were copied anyway instead of only copying the folders.

[Craig]

Michael, duplicating folder structures is fairly easy in both BC2 and BC3:

BC2:
1) Turn on "Always Show Folders"
2) Set file filters to -*.*
3) Use the Synchronize Folders->Custom Sync, Mirror, with "Create empty folders" checked and "Just selection" and "Only affect visible files" unchecked.

BC3)
1) Turn on "Compare Folder Structures"
2) Set filters to -*.*
3) Select all
4) Copy to other side. Make sure that "Including filtered files and folders" is unchecked in the confirmation dialog.

In the next release we're getting rid of the "Including filtered files and folders" checkbox. Copying a folder will only copy unfiltered files, and moving/deleting will always affect the entire folder instead of moving/deleting the unfiltered subset.

[Michael Bulgrien]

Yes, I am aware that one can use a -*.* file filter. In my opinion, that is not intuitive, especially for one that normally does all their filtering using the component toggles.

I look forward to testing the changes you've mentioned... but I still maintain that it would be nice to be able to view and copy a folder tree with files filtered by the toggles excluded from that copy. Although keying a manual filter is a workaround, it doesn't make it any less frustrating when a user tries to do something in a logical way and doesn't get the results they are looking for.

[Michael Bulgrien]

In other words, if there is a method to accomplish something that does not require the user to pull up the session settings and change their session defaults...a user is going to prefer it rather than editing session defaults to do a specialized task, then remembering to revert the settings when they are done.

Likewise, if the user thinks there should be a way to do something without having to edit their session defaults, then they will try it... and will get frustrated when it does not work.

The -*.* method will only work if the "Compare Folder Structures" setting is enabled. The method I described would work regardless of the "Compare Folder Structures" setting, thus eliminating the need to go into and change/verify the session settings.

[Michael Bulgrien]

Thanks, Michael. That's exactly what we're looking for -- people who would miss "Always Show Folders" if we permanently remove it.

Another reason I like to keep folders visible is that sometimes I have a partially expanded folder tree (only certain subfolders expanded) that I want to work with against several target folders. When I copy differences to the first target destination, all the folders collapse and dissappear. So when I select the next target, I have to re-expand the desired subfolder tree(s) all over again. In BC2, with the Always Show Folders option, the folder structure stays the way I've prepped it so that I do not need to re-prep it when I pair it with a new destination folder.

One thing BC2 does not do (that I would like to see in BC3) is for BC to remember the expanded state of folders without subfolders when a directory tree is re-paired with a new target. In other words, although the expanded tree structure stays open in BC2, folders without subfolders do not re-expand to show their file contents. It would be nice, in an always show folders implementation, if the expanded attribute would be remembered for these folders as well.

[rgjordan]

I'm trying to figure this out as well. If possible, I would like to the the toggle icon in bc3. Many times I am trying to replicate a skeleton directory structure on a peer server without moving all the files contained within like log files, etc. So in bc2 I set my mask to hide all files and click the icon "Always Show Folders". I can then replicate the folders without their contents.

Rob

[Tim]

In that case you should have Compare Folder Structure enabled. (It will likely be enabled by default anyway.) Then when you set your mask to hide all files and click Show All you'll be able to replicate the folder structure.

[rgjordan]

I wasn't able to get that to work. Would it be useful for me to send a video of what I'm doing? Anyways, I strongly believe this is confusing in bc3 and I've been using bc2 for two years.

I think there should be two toggle buttons.
One for always show/don't show files and one for always show/don't show folders.

Thanks,

Rob

[Michael Bulgrien]

I wasn't able to get that to work.

Hi Rob,

Part of the confusion is that you have to set two seemingly contradictory filters in two different places. Tim is saying to set your Toggles and/or Favorites to Show All Files (see selected toolbar buttons in images below) and at the same time set your File Filters to Filter All Files (see the selected filter text in the images below). I agree that it is not as intuitive as it could be...but it should work.

http://mysite.verizon.net/bulgrien/images/ShowAll_Toggles.png or http://mysite.verizon.net/bulgrien/images/ShowAll_Favorites.png

[Aaron]

You can always send us email at support@scootersoftware.com
Please include your settings as well (Help menu -> Support; Export)

[Marjolein Katsma]

The new "Compare Folder Structure" option combines and replaces two features that in our view were "band-aids" -- stuck on to fix complaints but not well integrated into the core model.

If the new feature is as successful as we hope it will be, we will enable it by default.I only with the "always show folders" (or its replacement) were available as a global setting, and on a session level only an override.

I always want to always show folders (all folders) - but as it is I have to remember to manually set this for each session, including sessions started from the shell extension.

I'd like everyone to try turning on the option in your most-used sessions and your Folder Compare session defaults. Let us know if you find any problems with it, and in what cases you'd rather have it off.Never. A toolbar button might be handy as a temporary override, but it's confusing as a way to set session settings when it's not in the session settings (or global settings). A setting belongs in a settings dialog.

[Erik]

I only with the "always show folders" (or its replacement) were available as a global setting, and on a session level only an override. [sic]
You can make your session settings global by saving them as the defaults. In the "Session Settings" dialog, switch the combobox at the bottom left to "Also upate session defaults" before clicking "OK". You can also edit the defaults on an "Open Sesson" tab.

[Tim]

It sounds like you agree with our current implementation: "Compare Folder Structure" is a (global) session default option, and individual sessions can override it.

As Erik said, you can edit the session defaults in order to affect all new sessions including those started from the shell extension.

The next release will have that option on by default.

[Marjolein Katsma]

You can make your session settings global by saving them as the defaults. In the "Session Settings" dialog, switch the combobox at the bottom left to "Also upate session defaults" before clicking "OK". You can also edit the defaults on an "Open Sesson" tab.But the "Always show folders" button is not (has never been) on the session defaults dialog - so how can I make it the default?

[Marjolein Katsma]

It sounds like you agree with our current implementation: "Compare Folder Structure" is a (global) session default option, and individual sessions can override it.It sounds like that is not the same as "Always show folders", and if it isn't then I don't agree with the current implementation at all.

"Always show folders" is a view. I just want to have folders visible whether or not I do a comparison on them - they should just be always visible.

"Compare Folder Structure" is an action (or at least sounds like one). I want to see folders regardless of whether I am or will be comparing their structure or not, regardless of whether files or subfolders are hidden or found to be identical after a comparison.

The next release will have that option on by default.If I misunderstand, please explain how this is the same thing as "Always show folders". If it isn't, please give it back and allow us to have that as a global (not just session) setting.

[Tim]

Sorry, I completely misunderstood your post. I thought you were advocating a session setting.

Compare Folder Structure is not the same as Always Show Folders. You're right -- Always Show Folders is a view option, while Compare Folder Structure is a session setting that defines what constitutes a difference.

These are two separate topics for our design.

The Compare Folder Structure feature is a core issue, since this is a comparison tool and a precise yet flexible definition of what constitutes a difference helps everything else fall into place -- what appears in a view, how the view responds to display filters, and how actions are interpreted. Hopefully the current behavior (but with the option on by default) is a natural replacement for a hodgepodge of BC2 settings. I suspect that many users will find that it replaces their need for Always Show Folders. We haven't gotten a lot of feedback on this yet but perhaps there will be more once we change the default.

In summary, both you and Michael would like to see Always Show Folders reinstated regardless of the Compare Folder Structure feature. We respect your opinion and hope to hear from others as well.

[Marjolein Katsma]

Phew! Thanks. :)

I was actually having trouble formulating what was so obvious to me... I sometimes have to muddle myself through it before the right words pop out. Sorry for not putting it clearer before.

[norrisg]

Let me explain why I'll not be using BC3 if it doesn't have "Always Show Folders" as a quickly accessible button.

When I'm comparing folders, I use the two sides first to copy new files which have shown up one side or the other, and then to eliminate obsolete files. Without "Always Show Folders" it can be quite difficult to find the new files amidst dozens or hundreds of others (the reason this button was added in BC2), however once the new files are copied, the entire folder will disappear until I toggle "Always Show Folders" back on again.

Having to delve into the session settings or make other settings changes is not only highly inconvenient, but it will also trigger a comparision to start all over again, which can take quite a long time with large directory structures. In short, it isn't workable for me without "Always Show Folders".

[Michael Bulgrien]

I, too, consistently use BC2 for certain activities since BC3 no longer has the "Always Show Folders" button. Although I love most of the changes in BC3, this is the number one reason why I will not be able to completely replace BC2 with BC3 in my environment. I really would prefer not to have two versions of Beyond Compare installed...but the frustration of always having folders dissappear when I don't want them to makes it necessary.

[jdmarch]

I too miss the ability to see all folders without seeing all files, though the absence of this ability has not been enough to send me back to BC2.

[Tim]

Thanks everyone, for your opinions. I'm planning some changes for build 454 (the next one after today's release) that I think will make everyone happy.

[norrisg]

Thanks everyone, for your opinions. I'm planning some changes for build 454 (the next one after today's release) that I think will make everyone happy.
Thanks for listening: I'm looking forward to it!

[Michael Bulgrien]

What is the difference between the "Minimal" and "Standard" Folder Display modes?

[Erik]

"Minimal Folder Display" will only show folders if they contain items to be shown.

if you have checked the "Compare folder structure" rule, "Standard Folder Display" will also show folders that match the display filter. For example, orphan folders will be shown if your display filter includes orphans even if the folder contains no visible items.

[Michael Bulgrien]

Thanks for the explanation.

Here's an interesting observation. If I am using the "Minimal Folder Display" option, I will only see the files in the root folder. All (unexpanded) subfolders and files are hidden. If I click the Expand All button on the toolbar, then all the sub-folders and files appear (so far so good).

If I click the Collapse All button on the toolbar, the collapsed sub-folders remain visible. Is this intentional? Or should they return to their hidden state as they were before they were first expanded?

[Craig]

The behavior you're seeing is a bug. When "Compare folder displayis checked, "Minimal folder display" will display the folders as if it's unchecked, that is the filtering will be based on whether the folders contain any files that should be displayed. If "Compare folder structure" is unchecked, there's no difference between "Minimal folder display" and "Standard folder display".

So the folders should have been visible the entire time.

[Michael Bulgrien]

Hmmm. I thought it was pretty cool that I could hide the subfolders. :) Oh well, I can see why you would consider it a bug. Some people would find it quite confusing.

P.S. I do have "Compare folder structure" enabled in my Session Settings.

[norrisg]

Now we've got "Always Show Folders" back, why was it decided that it cannot be put it on the toolbar as a button?

[jdmarch]

How would you put a 4-way choice on a single button?

[Erik]

Actually, "Always Show Folders" is always available on the toolbar (as well as "Ignore Folder Structure", etc). They are included in the dropdown button to the right of the display filters. You just pick "Always Show Folders" from the dropdown to turn it on.

[norrisg]

How would you put a 4-way choice on a single button?

Actually, "Always Show Folders" is always available on the toolbar (as well as "Ignore Folder Structure", etc). They are included in the dropdown button to the right of the display filters. You just pick "Always Show Folders" from the dropdown to turn it on.

Well, a 4-way requires twice as many clicks as we used to have doesn't it? There may be reasons to double the effort required to do something, but this is what ultimately leads to a user interface where most of it is useless to most users.

I would simply like a toggle, but it's obvious I'm not going to get it.

[Tim]

We have four states that are mutually exclusive, not a simple toggle. The alternative would be to have 4 buttons that would take up around 3 times the space on an already crowded toolbar.

How about if you assign keyboard shortcuts to your two favorite states?

[jdmarch]

I would simply like a toggle, but it's obvious I'm not going to get it.

Which 2 of the 4 states do you think the button should toggle between?

I was trying to think whether there is a user-friendly way to do it with 2 buttons (2 states squared = 4 states) but the 4 states don't seem to break down into an obvious matrix.

[norrisg]

Which 2 of the 4 states do you think the button should toggle between?
Whatever other one is currently selected and "Always Show Folders". Of course, that would require the previous state to be saved so it could be restored.

Personally, I doubt I'd ever toggle between anything other than "Compare Files and Folder Structure" and "Always Show Folders". The other two ("Only Compare Files" and "Ignore Folder Structure") are rather different types of comparison, and if I was designing this I would probably have had a three-way for (abbreviated) CFaFS, OCF and IFS, with ASF a separate button, most likely disabled for IFS.